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	<title>Comments on: Two Manipulative Ways to Close Conversations</title>
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	<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/</link>
	<description>experiments in refactored perception</description>
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		<title>By: FMJ</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-10133</link>
		<dc:creator>FMJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-10133</guid>
		<description>&quot;[...] the party perceived as “weaker” is the one who is more effusive/enthusiastic. &quot;

rebounding from your gervais principle posts, if you remember dwight&#039;s refusal to smile; his reasoning was that that was how chimpanzees identified submission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;[...] the party perceived as “weaker” is the one who is more effusive/enthusiastic. &#8221;</p>
<p>rebounding from your gervais principle posts, if you remember dwight&#8217;s refusal to smile; his reasoning was that that was how chimpanzees identified submission.</p>
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		<title>By: Fernandos</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-7630</link>
		<dc:creator>Fernandos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2010 01:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-7630</guid>
		<description>Nice Josh! /NULL hehe :)
no really your comment was even more insightfull than the blog authors thoughts.
Ciao dude</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice Josh! /NULL hehe <img src='http://www.ribbonfarm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
no really your comment was even more insightfull than the blog authors thoughts.<br />
Ciao dude</p>
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		<title>By: Josh W</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-4727</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 23:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-4727</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s one way to feel a little better about it if you want to:

There is an extent to which the purpose of conversation is to coordinate different ways of acting; if you&#039;re on a project that&#039;s having trouble, everyone starts talking really fast to everyone else about everything: Just the sign that they&#039;re doing a lot of that (and that people are doing lots of pausing or coming back to things people said earlier) implies that at the level of integration people are trying to pursue, their not meshing yet.

Giving someone a null line prematurely is like cutting them off with &quot;I understand&quot;, it&#039;s saying that we don&#039;t need to talk any more because we have enough to get on with what we&#039;re doing. If that sounds too business focused and pragmatic, you can think of it as &quot;we&#039;ve done enough exploring our differences to have a stable relationship for now&quot;. The reason it can be harsh is that you&#039;re saying to them, at a very basic level, &quot;You know enough about me, and I know enough about you to relate to you &lt;em&gt;at this distance&lt;/em&gt;&quot;.

It&#039;s also harsh because sometimes people talk like new couples or people you will likely soon be a really good friend with; exploring the space for further cooperation (your value to each other and common interests) and getting a grip on how you relate to this person. If someone else is trying to do this with you, talking too long etc, then maybe they have more time to develop really overlapping relationships, and they may just expect to live in a more tangled way. If you pull back to formalities or echoing, then your saying that you have reached stability, and your relationship with them is settled for now as far as your concerned.

Here&#039;s an alternative you might like, which sometimes works and sometimes fails; if they&#039;re not directly working with you, take a short amount of time and a small amount of brainpower (if you have it) to ask them about what else they were doing when they bumped into/phoned you etc. This will remind them of the differences in what your doing, and they&#039;ll either try to involve you (have some polite rebuffs ready or accept if it&#039;s actually useful), or move back onto thinking about their own projects and leave you be (beware that if you refocus them on their own work too well they may phone you back as their guru!).

Alternatively, if you already have a defined relationship, pull the conversation round to that. For the reasons suggested above, that should encourage them to leave you be, because you&#039;ve orientated yourself according to your business relationship, which is presumably reasonably defined, and that is the same stable point you imply with the null signals.

As far as power and sentence length go, I&#039;ve always thought that the less important someone is to you, the less you need them to understand you, and the more important you are to someone, the more they have to understand you. So powerful people can just talk crap and force everyone else to divine meaning from it. Of course they do actually need those people somewhat, so they are shooting themselves in the foot! Power delays the consequences of being lazy, but that doesn&#039;t mean you should default to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s one way to feel a little better about it if you want to:</p>
<p>There is an extent to which the purpose of conversation is to coordinate different ways of acting; if you&#8217;re on a project that&#8217;s having trouble, everyone starts talking really fast to everyone else about everything: Just the sign that they&#8217;re doing a lot of that (and that people are doing lots of pausing or coming back to things people said earlier) implies that at the level of integration people are trying to pursue, their not meshing yet.</p>
<p>Giving someone a null line prematurely is like cutting them off with &#8220;I understand&#8221;, it&#8217;s saying that we don&#8217;t need to talk any more because we have enough to get on with what we&#8217;re doing. If that sounds too business focused and pragmatic, you can think of it as &#8220;we&#8217;ve done enough exploring our differences to have a stable relationship for now&#8221;. The reason it can be harsh is that you&#8217;re saying to them, at a very basic level, &#8220;You know enough about me, and I know enough about you to relate to you <em>at this distance</em>&#8220;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also harsh because sometimes people talk like new couples or people you will likely soon be a really good friend with; exploring the space for further cooperation (your value to each other and common interests) and getting a grip on how you relate to this person. If someone else is trying to do this with you, talking too long etc, then maybe they have more time to develop really overlapping relationships, and they may just expect to live in a more tangled way. If you pull back to formalities or echoing, then your saying that you have reached stability, and your relationship with them is settled for now as far as your concerned.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an alternative you might like, which sometimes works and sometimes fails; if they&#8217;re not directly working with you, take a short amount of time and a small amount of brainpower (if you have it) to ask them about what else they were doing when they bumped into/phoned you etc. This will remind them of the differences in what your doing, and they&#8217;ll either try to involve you (have some polite rebuffs ready or accept if it&#8217;s actually useful), or move back onto thinking about their own projects and leave you be (beware that if you refocus them on their own work too well they may phone you back as their guru!).</p>
<p>Alternatively, if you already have a defined relationship, pull the conversation round to that. For the reasons suggested above, that should encourage them to leave you be, because you&#8217;ve orientated yourself according to your business relationship, which is presumably reasonably defined, and that is the same stable point you imply with the null signals.</p>
<p>As far as power and sentence length go, I&#8217;ve always thought that the less important someone is to you, the less you need them to understand you, and the more important you are to someone, the more they have to understand you. So powerful people can just talk crap and force everyone else to divine meaning from it. Of course they do actually need those people somewhat, so they are shooting themselves in the foot! Power delays the consequences of being lazy, but that doesn&#8217;t mean you should default to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-4696</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 03:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-4696</guid>
		<description>&quot;They work, but they make me uncomfortable somehow.&quot;

My instant guess for the reason of this feeling is that since you normally use language to transmit information, intentionally transmuting a null line  feels repetitive and meaningless, so you don&#039;t like to do it.

Of course, in this case the null line itself contains meaning. You want to finish the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They work, but they make me uncomfortable somehow.&#8221;</p>
<p>My instant guess for the reason of this feeling is that since you normally use language to transmit information, intentionally transmuting a null line  feels repetitive and meaningless, so you don&#8217;t like to do it.</p>
<p>Of course, in this case the null line itself contains meaning. You want to finish the conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Xanax.</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-4200</link>
		<dc:creator>Xanax.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-4200</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Xanax....&lt;/strong&gt;

Buy xanax. Xanax overdose. Xanax. Xanax during pregnancy....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Xanax&#8230;.</strong></p>
<p>Buy xanax. Xanax overdose. Xanax. Xanax during pregnancy&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: bd</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-3163</link>
		<dc:creator>bd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-3163</guid>
		<description>Interesting. I generally have this problem with email more than IM. In an email you often reply to or comment on information from the sender&#039;s previous email, and it can be hard to do so without leaving some ambiguity as to whether a response is expected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. I generally have this problem with email more than IM. In an email you often reply to or comment on information from the sender&#8217;s previous email, and it can be hard to do so without leaving some ambiguity as to whether a response is expected.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-2632</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 05:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-2632</guid>
		<description>Schegloffs papers can be downloaded from his archives at
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/soc/faculty/schegloff/pubs/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Schegloffs papers can be downloaded from his archives at<br />
<a href="http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/soc/faculty/schegloff/pubs/" rel="nofollow">http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/soc/faculty/schegloff/pubs/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Venkat</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-2624</link>
		<dc:creator>Venkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-2624</guid>
		<description>Awesome, thanks. Was not aware this had been studied academically :) Will definitely read this paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome, thanks. Was not aware this had been studied academically <img src='http://www.ribbonfarm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Will definitely read this paper.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Feinman</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-2622</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Feinman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-2622</guid>
		<description>This paper might be of interest to you:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PBLAxzupB70C&amp;lpg=PA263&amp;ots=RhZtDDc9dG&amp;dq=%22opening%20up%20closings%22&amp;pg=PA263#v=onepage

It&#039;s about how people initiate the &quot;goodbye&quot; conversation...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This paper might be of interest to you:<br />
<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=PBLAxzupB70C&#038;lpg=PA263&#038;ots=RhZtDDc9dG&#038;dq=%22opening%20up%20closings%22&#038;pg=PA263#v=onepage" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=PBLAxzupB70C&#038;lpg=PA263&#038;ots=RhZtDDc9dG&#038;dq=%22opening%20up%20closings%22&#038;pg=PA263#v=onepage</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s about how people initiate the &#8220;goodbye&#8221; conversation&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Venkat</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-2616</link>
		<dc:creator>Venkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-2616</guid>
		<description>Heh heh, I&#039;ve shared too many secrets already :)

But I don&#039;t know really.  I would guess it has to do with what you pay attention to and get sensitized to for a long time. Like wine enthusiasts after years being able to tell differences that others can&#039;t detect.

Venkat</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh heh, I&#8217;ve shared too many secrets already <img src='http://www.ribbonfarm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t know really.  I would guess it has to do with what you pay attention to and get sensitized to for a long time. Like wine enthusiasts after years being able to tell differences that others can&#8217;t detect.</p>
<p>Venkat</p>
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		<title>By: Manju</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-2615</link>
		<dc:creator>Manju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-2615</guid>
		<description>Dear Venkat,

Just let me in on one thing (perhaps a secret:)) that has always made me curious about your thought pattern:
How do you identify these subtleties &amp; then extend these as ideas to work on? Is that how most of the &quot;innovation champs&quot; work? 

How do ideas emerge from the recesses of our minds? Which are the triggers that cause us to think of something and extend it as an abstract, solution, hypotheses etc? Is it really only practice or is there that one extra neuron that results in more engaging thoughts to develop and branch out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Venkat,</p>
<p>Just let me in on one thing (perhaps a secret:)) that has always made me curious about your thought pattern:<br />
How do you identify these subtleties &amp; then extend these as ideas to work on? Is that how most of the &#8220;innovation champs&#8221; work? </p>
<p>How do ideas emerge from the recesses of our minds? Which are the triggers that cause us to think of something and extend it as an abstract, solution, hypotheses etc? Is it really only practice or is there that one extra neuron that results in more engaging thoughts to develop and branch out?</p>
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		<title>By: India: How To Close Conversations &#124; Kumpulin Info</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-2613</link>
		<dc:creator>India: How To Close Conversations &#124; Kumpulin Info</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-2613</guid>
		<description>[...] a comment   Venkatesh Rao at Ribbonfarm.com writes about manipulative ways to close IM/chat and email conversations and the psychology behind these [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a comment   Venkatesh Rao at Ribbonfarm.com writes about manipulative ways to close IM/chat and email conversations and the psychology behind these [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bala</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/08/12/two-manipulative-ways-to-close-conversations/#comment-2612</link>
		<dc:creator>Bala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=1177#comment-2612</guid>
		<description>You never cease to amaze me with some of your observations and thoughts. I usually read something here and go &quot;hmmm, of course&quot;, but had never put the 2 together to realize the significance. Another brilliant piece. And concise too. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You never cease to amaze me with some of your observations and thoughts. I usually read something here and go &#8220;hmmm, of course&#8221;, but had never put the 2 together to realize the significance. Another brilliant piece. And concise too. <img src='http://www.ribbonfarm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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