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	<title>Comments on: Coworking: &#8220;I&#8217;m Outta Here&#8221; by Jones, Sundsted and Bacigalupo</title>
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	<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/</link>
	<description>experiments in refactored perception</description>
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		<title>By: Jack Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-9740</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 14:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-9740</guid>
		<description>This post raises some interesting questions. The coworking movement and its implementation is not homogeneous, as many of the spaces were established by strong-willed individuals (as noted in the book review, which starts this post). I am starting a coworking facility in Prescott Arizona with two partners and we have ideas on where we want to take it. Given my business background I did a feasibility analysis and operations Pro Forma before deciding to do this. I have had some existing space owners tell me their way of operating is the only pattern for success and trying something else would lead to failure. That advise was not well received by me.
I suggest that people that are are involved in starting coworking facilities of any type are entrepreneurs or they would not have done it. One thing I have learned about successful entrepreneurs is they understand how to change directions and modify original plans to ensure success, something called a strategic pivot. I believe the coworking movement is at a strategic juncture; we have the worst economy since the Great Depression but we also have the largest number of entrepreneurial startups ever. That provides an opportunity for coworking facilities to expand their reach into business incubation/business acceleration. Our facility is operating on a for-profit model and some in the coworking scene would challenge that. However, I believe the for-profit model, in one form or another, becomes the basis for the evolution of the coworking facility. Time will tell if I am right, but that is my two cents worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post raises some interesting questions. The coworking movement and its implementation is not homogeneous, as many of the spaces were established by strong-willed individuals (as noted in the book review, which starts this post). I am starting a coworking facility in Prescott Arizona with two partners and we have ideas on where we want to take it. Given my business background I did a feasibility analysis and operations Pro Forma before deciding to do this. I have had some existing space owners tell me their way of operating is the only pattern for success and trying something else would lead to failure. That advise was not well received by me.<br />
I suggest that people that are are involved in starting coworking facilities of any type are entrepreneurs or they would not have done it. One thing I have learned about successful entrepreneurs is they understand how to change directions and modify original plans to ensure success, something called a strategic pivot. I believe the coworking movement is at a strategic juncture; we have the worst economy since the Great Depression but we also have the largest number of entrepreneurial startups ever. That provides an opportunity for coworking facilities to expand their reach into business incubation/business acceleration. Our facility is operating on a for-profit model and some in the coworking scene would challenge that. However, I believe the for-profit model, in one form or another, becomes the basis for the evolution of the coworking facility. Time will tell if I am right, but that is my two cents worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Nostalgia for the Future » links for 2009-04-25</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2409</link>
		<dc:creator>Nostalgia for the Future » links for 2009-04-25</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2409</guid>
		<description>[...] Coworking: “I’m Outta Here” by Jones, Sundsted and Bacigalupo &#8220;To go mainstream, the [coworking] movement will need to build irony, self-satire, pragmatism and an element of cultural agnosticism into its brand, while continuing to make catalysis of microcultures of work its differentiator.&#8221; (tags: coworking employment futurism postcapitalism guilds collaboration freedom) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Coworking: “I’m Outta Here” by Jones, Sundsted and Bacigalupo &#8220;To go mainstream, the [coworking] movement will need to build irony, self-satire, pragmatism and an element of cultural agnosticism into its brand, while continuing to make catalysis of microcultures of work its differentiator.&#8221; (tags: coworking employment futurism postcapitalism guilds collaboration freedom) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Venkat</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2275</link>
		<dc:creator>Venkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2275</guid>
		<description>Two points on the &#039;market leader&#039; thing:

1. If it isn&#039;t going to become the market leader, I have to admit I am more curious about what will. Starbucks++? In a sense I am not an early adopter of innovations. I am more of a &quot;fast follower&quot; ... jump on whatever looks like it will be the &#039;category killer.&#039; I suppose it has to do with a fundamental belief somewhere in the back of my head that &#039;it isn&#039;t real unless it goes mainstream.&#039;

2. The intentions of early adopters may not matter. Sometimes things go mainstream DESPITE the efforts of the early adopters to keep things to themselves. Crossing the chasm is a matter of an innovations basic DNA, not the explicit goals of the people involved. People whose identity fundamentally revolves around being avant-garde will leave the moment something goes mainstream and look for the next stage, usually with murmurs of &quot;the old authenticity is gone, it sold out, it is all crass mainstream people now.&quot; Twitter seems on the verge of that :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two points on the &#8216;market leader&#8217; thing:</p>
<p>1. If it isn&#8217;t going to become the market leader, I have to admit I am more curious about what will. Starbucks++? In a sense I am not an early adopter of innovations. I am more of a &#8220;fast follower&#8221; &#8230; jump on whatever looks like it will be the &#8216;category killer.&#8217; I suppose it has to do with a fundamental belief somewhere in the back of my head that &#8216;it isn&#8217;t real unless it goes mainstream.&#8217;</p>
<p>2. The intentions of early adopters may not matter. Sometimes things go mainstream DESPITE the efforts of the early adopters to keep things to themselves. Crossing the chasm is a matter of an innovations basic DNA, not the explicit goals of the people involved. People whose identity fundamentally revolves around being avant-garde will leave the moment something goes mainstream and look for the next stage, usually with murmurs of &#8220;the old authenticity is gone, it sold out, it is all crass mainstream people now.&#8221; Twitter seems on the verge of that <img src='http://www.ribbonfarm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Todd Sundsted</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2273</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Sundsted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 14:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2273</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll go ahead and throw my $0.02 into the mix.

I&#039;d say Venkat&#039;s take on coworking&#039;s view of itself is pretty accurate.  Adoption/growth isn&#039;t a stated value in that system; in fact, the stated value is &quot;sustainability&quot;.  However, I&#039;ll also say that this is not what attracts me to coworking (well, that&#039;s not true... I do buy in to the values).  What&#039;s also interesting to me is the challenge that coworking represents to the status quo of &quot;the office&quot;, because it&#039;s successful and growing, because it&#039;s allowing a very valuable group of innovators to enjoy the benefits of a work community without dealing with the traditional office BS (caricatured or not), and because it&#039;s attracting a lot of attention.  When people in corporate HR have heard of coworking (albeit a small number of them to date) that&#039;s impressive -- it&#039;s only been a recognizable term for a few years.

Coworking, as narrowly defined as it is today, may not become the market leader -- that&#039;s not even a goal -- but I do believe it will catalyze a change in how we think about work.

Venkat, I enjoyed the review and your analysis.

Todd Sundsted</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll go ahead and throw my $0.02 into the mix.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say Venkat&#8217;s take on coworking&#8217;s view of itself is pretty accurate.  Adoption/growth isn&#8217;t a stated value in that system; in fact, the stated value is &#8220;sustainability&#8221;.  However, I&#8217;ll also say that this is not what attracts me to coworking (well, that&#8217;s not true&#8230; I do buy in to the values).  What&#8217;s also interesting to me is the challenge that coworking represents to the status quo of &#8220;the office&#8221;, because it&#8217;s successful and growing, because it&#8217;s allowing a very valuable group of innovators to enjoy the benefits of a work community without dealing with the traditional office BS (caricatured or not), and because it&#8217;s attracting a lot of attention.  When people in corporate HR have heard of coworking (albeit a small number of them to date) that&#8217;s impressive &#8212; it&#8217;s only been a recognizable term for a few years.</p>
<p>Coworking, as narrowly defined as it is today, may not become the market leader &#8212; that&#8217;s not even a goal &#8212; but I do believe it will catalyze a change in how we think about work.</p>
<p>Venkat, I enjoyed the review and your analysis.</p>
<p>Todd Sundsted</p>
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		<title>By: Venkat</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2271</link>
		<dc:creator>Venkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2271</guid>
		<description>Greg:

I am not attempting definitions. I am reporting my perceptions of what I am hearing and reading.  It would be great if the movement outgrows the perceptions it seems to be projecting right now.

Venkat</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg:</p>
<p>I am not attempting definitions. I am reporting my perceptions of what I am hearing and reading.  It would be great if the movement outgrows the perceptions it seems to be projecting right now.</p>
<p>Venkat</p>
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		<title>By: Greg La Vardera</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2270</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg La Vardera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2270</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m wondering why you&#039;ve got such a tight definition of CoWorking - not only as a &quot;hippie&quot; culture, but even as a Real Estate model - your concerns about cost. It seems its more about the activity of independents congregating for work and the cultural value they bring to the table - CoWorking, and less so about whether they can do it with the rent being too high or not. First of all it seems that will shake itself out - if a site does in fact offer enough through its culture to justify the cost to the members then the numbers will work. And if multifamily housing developers and managers elect to offer membership based workplaces, hey, guess what - that&#039;s also CoWorking. And if somebody concocts an English Club/worksite, you know - that&#039;s CoWorking too.

It seems to me that the cultural dimension can take on any number of dimensions, and becomes the glue, and the added value to a given work site. Sure there will always be coffee shops, and there may come to be low cost sites associated with housing, but there will also be high value sites whose culture will give back more value to a perhaps narrowly defined part of this market and that type of CoWorking site will likely thrive as well.

When you try to so narrowly define it, well then you have a lot to criticize, no doubt, and makes for discussion in a review (I&#039;ve not read the book), but I can&#039;t help feeling the points are moot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m wondering why you&#8217;ve got such a tight definition of CoWorking &#8211; not only as a &#8220;hippie&#8221; culture, but even as a Real Estate model &#8211; your concerns about cost. It seems its more about the activity of independents congregating for work and the cultural value they bring to the table &#8211; CoWorking, and less so about whether they can do it with the rent being too high or not. First of all it seems that will shake itself out &#8211; if a site does in fact offer enough through its culture to justify the cost to the members then the numbers will work. And if multifamily housing developers and managers elect to offer membership based workplaces, hey, guess what &#8211; that&#8217;s also CoWorking. And if somebody concocts an English Club/worksite, you know &#8211; that&#8217;s CoWorking too.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the cultural dimension can take on any number of dimensions, and becomes the glue, and the added value to a given work site. Sure there will always be coffee shops, and there may come to be low cost sites associated with housing, but there will also be high value sites whose culture will give back more value to a perhaps narrowly defined part of this market and that type of CoWorking site will likely thrive as well.</p>
<p>When you try to so narrowly define it, well then you have a lot to criticize, no doubt, and makes for discussion in a review (I&#8217;ve not read the book), but I can&#8217;t help feeling the points are moot.</p>
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		<title>By: Venkat</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2268</link>
		<dc:creator>Venkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2268</guid>
		<description>Dave: am curious as to why the club model might not be legal in the US. If you have a membership-by-nomination network and no discriminatory elements in its formal criteria, why would it not work?

As for healthcare, that&#039;s a whole other issue. I think employer-sponsored healthcare was a bad model to begin with, so coworking inheriting that function would be worse. That said, on the &#039;guild&#039; end, bodies like IEEE do offer healthcare access, but not very good. This is one area where I think national+portable (but not free) is likely the right direction.

Justin: I think guild models are merely the extreme form of horizontal economic organization, and are not necessarily more agile. They just have flexible scaling in a different dimension. Clockspeed, by Charles Fine, which I reviewed, talked about a basic horizontal/vertical cycling dynamic in industries. I don&#039;t think competition is any more of an issue than in the cross-functional aggregation of talent in companies... there different &quot;vertical&quot; projects comprising multi-functional teams compete with each other. In guilds, competition is among like people/groups. There will always be competition, I think organizations primarily exist to strike a balance between demand/supply aggregation and market visibility on the one hand, and competition on the other. Seems like a good topic for a followup post.

The permanence thing is a serious issue on a physical level. In cloud computing, say on Amazon servers, you can shut down an EC2 server and bundle up your data to store on S3, and then restart a different server with the same data/code bundle later. Need something like that for workers. Maybe a mobile phone app that lists &quot;available spaces for the day in zip code 12345&quot; for groups to go to in a coordinated way, with everything forced to be paperless, and PO boxes for mail at the post office. The equivalent of the s3 bundle would be a coffee machine in someone&#039;s trunk.

Jesse: I think the &#039;psychological moment&#039; in the game is when you pull the trigger and give up assigned  office space :) At that point, you are no longer in &#039;field test&#039; mode, and it feels very different. It sinks in with finality that you aren&#039;t going to be part of the office &#039;scene&#039; of seminars, cookies and water cooler gossip the way others are, and you have to think about career and professional issues very differently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: am curious as to why the club model might not be legal in the US. If you have a membership-by-nomination network and no discriminatory elements in its formal criteria, why would it not work?</p>
<p>As for healthcare, that&#8217;s a whole other issue. I think employer-sponsored healthcare was a bad model to begin with, so coworking inheriting that function would be worse. That said, on the &#8216;guild&#8217; end, bodies like IEEE do offer healthcare access, but not very good. This is one area where I think national+portable (but not free) is likely the right direction.</p>
<p>Justin: I think guild models are merely the extreme form of horizontal economic organization, and are not necessarily more agile. They just have flexible scaling in a different dimension. Clockspeed, by Charles Fine, which I reviewed, talked about a basic horizontal/vertical cycling dynamic in industries. I don&#8217;t think competition is any more of an issue than in the cross-functional aggregation of talent in companies&#8230; there different &#8220;vertical&#8221; projects comprising multi-functional teams compete with each other. In guilds, competition is among like people/groups. There will always be competition, I think organizations primarily exist to strike a balance between demand/supply aggregation and market visibility on the one hand, and competition on the other. Seems like a good topic for a followup post.</p>
<p>The permanence thing is a serious issue on a physical level. In cloud computing, say on Amazon servers, you can shut down an EC2 server and bundle up your data to store on S3, and then restart a different server with the same data/code bundle later. Need something like that for workers. Maybe a mobile phone app that lists &#8220;available spaces for the day in zip code 12345&#8243; for groups to go to in a coordinated way, with everything forced to be paperless, and PO boxes for mail at the post office. The equivalent of the s3 bundle would be a coffee machine in someone&#8217;s trunk.</p>
<p>Jesse: I think the &#8216;psychological moment&#8217; in the game is when you pull the trigger and give up assigned  office space <img src='http://www.ribbonfarm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  At that point, you are no longer in &#8216;field test&#8217; mode, and it feels very different. It sinks in with finality that you aren&#8217;t going to be part of the office &#8216;scene&#8217; of seminars, cookies and water cooler gossip the way others are, and you have to think about career and professional issues very differently.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Pickard</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2267</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Pickard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 06:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2267</guid>
		<description>Fascinating post, Venkat.  I went for a job interview a while back for a couple of people try to phase their non-profit social ... &quot;phenomenon&quot; into something a bit more structured and profitable, and they had their eye on a couple of days a week in &lt;a href=&quot;http://kingscross.the-hub.net/public/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this place&lt;/a&gt; - which had a fantastic atmosphere, but nowhere to store paperwork when they were elsewhere.

And I think that&#039;s an important point, here - permanent presence vs. agility.  Orange published a futures document a while back which talked - as one of its scenarios - about employment reverting to something guild-like, where professional organisations can vouch for the qualifications and reputation of their members, while providing vocation-specific support.  Not sure about the cooperation/competition mix there, though, as you&#039;d presumably be competing against your colleagues for work?

Still, interesting stuff.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating post, Venkat.  I went for a job interview a while back for a couple of people try to phase their non-profit social &#8230; &#8220;phenomenon&#8221; into something a bit more structured and profitable, and they had their eye on a couple of days a week in <a href="http://kingscross.the-hub.net/public/" rel="nofollow">this place</a> &#8211; which had a fantastic atmosphere, but nowhere to store paperwork when they were elsewhere.</p>
<p>And I think that&#8217;s an important point, here &#8211; permanent presence vs. agility.  Orange published a futures document a while back which talked &#8211; as one of its scenarios &#8211; about employment reverting to something guild-like, where professional organisations can vouch for the qualifications and reputation of their members, while providing vocation-specific support.  Not sure about the cooperation/competition mix there, though, as you&#8217;d presumably be competing against your colleagues for work?</p>
<p>Still, interesting stuff.  <img src='http://www.ribbonfarm.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Silverstein</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2266</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse Silverstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 04:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2266</guid>
		<description>Very interesting post. I think my favorite part is a sneaking suspicion that you wrote all of this while at Starbucks. I have actually been thinking a lot about this exact concept/issue on a smaller scale: cloudworking for you! So far, no conclusion, but I haven&#039;t done enough field testing yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting post. I think my favorite part is a sneaking suspicion that you wrote all of this while at Starbucks. I have actually been thinking a lot about this exact concept/issue on a smaller scale: cloudworking for you! So far, no conclusion, but I haven&#8217;t done enough field testing yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Salkowitz</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2265</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Salkowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 03:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2265</guid>
		<description>Very informative, as usual. I have been tracking this development in the future of work, but did not know there was an organization and ideology behind it to this extent. Among other things, it has interesting implications for the commercial real-estate market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very informative, as usual. I have been tracking this development in the future of work, but did not know there was an organization and ideology behind it to this extent. Among other things, it has interesting implications for the commercial real-estate market.</p>
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		<title>By: Coworking: “I’m Outta Here” by Jones, Sundsted and Bacigalupo</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2264</link>
		<dc:creator>Coworking: “I’m Outta Here” by Jones, Sundsted and Bacigalupo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 03:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2264</guid>
		<description>[...] News Sources wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptI’m Outta Here: How coworking is making the office obsolete by Drew Jones, Todd Sundstead and Tony Bacigalupo is a curious counter-cultural book about the emerging future-of-work movement called “coworking.” Ostensibly, the movement is about practical workday logistics for the new rootless worker, whether he/she is a virtual traditional employee or a free agent, looking for ways to avoid going nuts working alone at home. The movement is about building ‘Spaces’ like this one, CitizenSpace in S [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] News Sources wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptI’m Outta Here: How coworking is making the office obsolete by Drew Jones, Todd Sundstead and Tony Bacigalupo is a curious counter-cultural book about the emerging future-of-work movement called “coworking.” Ostensibly, the movement is about practical workday logistics for the new rootless worker, whether he/she is a virtual traditional employee or a free agent, looking for ways to avoid going nuts working alone at home. The movement is about building ‘Spaces’ like this one, CitizenSpace in S [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Doolin</title>
		<link>http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/04/15/coworking-im-outta-here-by-jones-sundsted-and-bacigalupo/#comment-2263</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Doolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ribbonfarm.com/?p=927#comment-2263</guid>
		<description>Very interesting essay.  You have the gist of it, we&#039;ll see how it all plays out.  The whole &quot;movement&quot; reminds me of the utopian movements littered all across the Midwest from the 1880s.    Many of these were religious, but a surprising number were not.  What&#039;s old is new again.

Your notion of neo-British clubs probably wouldn&#039;t legally fly in the USA.   

Also, collectivized health care in the USA is not legal unless you&#039;re purchasing on the basis of a business entity that is pursuing other ends.  That is, you can&#039;t form a group with the intention of obtaining group health care.  You have to form a company of some sort, then obtain the health care for the company.   Last I check, you needed 5 people involved as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting essay.  You have the gist of it, we&#8217;ll see how it all plays out.  The whole &#8220;movement&#8221; reminds me of the utopian movements littered all across the Midwest from the 1880s.    Many of these were religious, but a surprising number were not.  What&#8217;s old is new again.</p>
<p>Your notion of neo-British clubs probably wouldn&#8217;t legally fly in the USA.   </p>
<p>Also, collectivized health care in the USA is not legal unless you&#8217;re purchasing on the basis of a business entity that is pursuing other ends.  That is, you can&#8217;t form a group with the intention of obtaining group health care.  You have to form a company of some sort, then obtain the health care for the company.   Last I check, you needed 5 people involved as well.</p>
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